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Transparency on the Drama

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sage

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Now that most of the drama is over, I think it's time to post the actual facts on what's been going on around here.
I'll show you the actual conversations. Then, you all can point out the nasty bits to us, and we can learn from them.

---​

It all started way back when, in this thread: https://rpgmakermv.co/threads/rule-revisions-additions.2356/
LTN suggested some rule changes, and Xyphien and I didn't think they were necessary.

Then, LTN started a private conversation with the mods/admin (him, Xyphien, Amy, and myself) about making the staff section exclude the Resource Team. Amy quit, and asked Xyphien to take down her resources.
You can read all of the messages here: http://sta.sh/21vdrfxrhcpz

After about a week or two, we get a few messages from RT members about Amy trying to convince them to quit the Resource Team.
I've taken out personal details of the members, so you can now see the messages here: http://sta.sh/21btetpoz3tr

Then, Amy messaged Xyphien again to take down the backgrounds a few days ago. Xyphien responded, explaining how he was not required to because of the Terms of Service.
You can read the conversation they had here: http://sta.sh/2gl70lppkse

The terms of service are the default Xenforo (our forum host) terms of service, and I guarantee you can find similar ones all over the internet.
The terms of service can be read here: https://rpgmakermv.co/help/terms

If you're unsure of how the terms of service works, @MinisterJay summed it all up right here:
In response to your accusations of theft occurring. None has. Yes, I get teased for being the compliance nut, on this forum, but this compliance nut was smart enough to actually press the link for "I agree to the terms and rules " before checking the box.. All it says is that the forum can use the resources that I have uploaded, and will continue to upload, can be used by the forum. I retain the ownership. There is nothing about the forum owning nor selling other's resources. This occurs often in business. It happens very often in contests, and competitions. I tutor law students and MBA students, so I am very positive, with my knowledge and research, that nothing illegal is occurring or has occurred.

And that brings us to the last day or two. A bunch of people left and accused us of: bullying, acting on revenge, stealing, breaking the law, and more. None of these are true, at least from what I've seen. Now that you all know as much as I know, you can be the judge whether any of that is true or not.
 
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Xyphien

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Resource Team
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@sage I have just added you to the conversation you said you were not apart of. This way you can provide information on that conversation (icecream)
 

Micro

Dragon Goddess
Xy$
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I think you guys handled it well, considering it's been escalating for a while now. I'm really glad it's over because I was becoming a little hesitant to come here since something seemed to be going on every time I came around lately, and it was really sad to see since I love this place and think it's a fun place to go. Seeing all that bad stuff around just made me feel icky inside and I hated it... =/

I do have a question though, why would anyone suggest not having the RT members in the staff section? I'm just curious why that is/was an issue at all, not that I have a problem with it if you decide not to include RT people in there. is it a case of "this is why we cant have nice things?"I ask only because it is something that affects me directly, and if there is a problem I would like to know what I can do to alleviate some worries about it.

I know nothing has changed regarding RT people on staff section so I'm assuming the suggestion didn't go through ... but yeah, just curiosity.


EDIT: oh, seems like it's explained in the conversations. at the very least, I like that section because we can discuss things like contests together and still keep it a surprise for the rest of the community. also discussing RT packs etc


but yeah, you guys are doing a great job. once sage stepped in with his ice cream music playing, I felt the drama melt away like ice cream on a hot day! it was pretty sweet

anyway, I'm gonna sleep soon so I don't have time to read through the entire conversation list you posted, so I'll check the rest tomorrow. thanks for sharing!

 
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sage

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I do have a question though, why would anyone suggest not having the RT members in the staff section? I'm just curious why that is/was an issue at all, not that I have a problem with it if you decide not to include RT people in there.
Most of the staff things aren't very secretive, so it doesn't matter if the RT sees it, but the occasional thing comes up.
LTN brought up reporting a RT member's activity in the Lookout Member section, the place where we discuss members who aren't obeying the rules. I think that was a valid reason.
Personally, I don't really like the idea of having the RT being in the staff section because the low-ish barrier to entry. The requirements to being on the RT aren't very demanding, while the mods have to go through the election. It doesn't seem completely right to me. Additionally, the RT members get access to the Mod/Admin section even though they don't do much relating to that part of the forum (the cleaning up, reporting, rules, etc.).
 

Cunechan

∠( ᐛ 」∠)_
Xy$
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I think you guys handled it well, considering it's been escalating for a while now. I'm really glad it's over because I was becoming a little hesitant to come here since something seemed to be going on every time I came around lately, and it was really sad to see since I love this place and think it's a fun place to go. Seeing all that bad stuff around just made me feel icky inside and I hated it... =/
Same here. It's such a sad and awkward feeling when I see people leaving who have been here since the very beginning and contributed a lot. This whole thing escalated quickly but you guys handled it well, don't worry. Didn't really have a clue what was going on unless I scrolled along the skype chat and knew a few bits of what was happening. But I'm happy that it's over now

Time to have (icecream)
 

Micro

Dragon Goddess
Xy$
0.00
Most of the staff things aren't very secretive, so it doesn't matter if the RT sees it, but the occasional thing comes up.
LTN brought up reporting a RT member's activity in the Lookout Member section, the place where we discuss members who aren't obeying the rules. I think that was a valid reason.
Personally, I don't really like the idea of having the RT being in the staff section because the low-ish barrier to entry. The requirements to being on the RT aren't very demanding, while the mods have to go through the election. It doesn't seem completely right to me. Additionally, the RT members get access to the Mod/Admin section even though they don't do much relating to that part of the forum (the cleaning up, reporting, rules, etc.).
Yea I do agree. I edited my other post to reflect some more of my thoughts on the topic "just because" I had some things I felt like saying lol.


I do think that it is a bit too easy to get onto the RT though. maybe a probation period would be nice or something, because I feel like some people might want to join because of the green name and then not really be an active part of the team they are in.

I mostly just appreciate the private area to discuss things like RT packs and contests since we can come up with stuff together while keeping it a surprise from the rest of the forum =)

EDIT: removed the more rambly/biased parts of my previous edit. I realize this isn't just about me, but the RT as a whole. my bad. :D I just feel very strongly about this forum!
 

sage

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people on the RT IMO are likely to be a bit more dedicated to the forum than regular members, otherwise they wouldn't bother to apply anyways. so, I think at times, we can offer valuable advice--we don't really need to be in a private section for that though.

ugh I'm rambling, sorry about that. I'm kinda tired so I don't know if I'm making any sense, but I would really like to contribute to the wellness of the forum in any way possible, so that's why I appreciate being allowed on the Staff section. I totally understand your points though.

if the privilege was revoked though, I'd admit I'd be a little sad since it feels like something was taken away from me because of something other people did. I just wanna be totally honest =D no matter what happens, I won't have regrets if I speak my mind hehe.

but yeah, you guys are doing a great job. once sage stepped in with his ice cream music playing, I felt the drama melt away like ice cream on a hot day! it was pretty sweet

anyway, I'm gonna sleep s
I see what you're saying, and I do think you have a point.
We agreed that the RT should be able to see the suggestions forum, which is really the part that most applies to them, I think.

Thank goodness for ice cream.
Yeah, I need to sleep too. P:

I just feel very strongly about this forum!
Glad to hear it!
 

Companion Wulf

Lone Wolf
Xy$
0.00
It's unfortunate that this had to happen at all to begin with.And very sad. Truthfully, it does break my heart because I just want everyone to get along. That's not life though. Sometimes it's unavoidable, maybe inevitable. I think it was handled well enough, although the ripples might be felt for awhile. (The ice cream DID help spread a little CHILL-axing!)
 
Thank you so much for the transparency.

Unfortunately, I get the gist that some things were handled extremely badly here. Trust issues, chain of command (which as Amy said were just discussions and not actual changes but I have no idea how the rule changes got there as they were obvs added by someone other than Amy without informing others) and random accusations.

I would advise all participants to go to couples' counselling! :P (or chill off and don't bring personal emotions into the whole rule discussing thing)

I'd advise if not rule changes, then clarity changes at the very least. Chanelling an inner sailor may be seen differently by other people. For me, that'd be about a swear every (short) post while to someone else, possibly a swear every two. That's a difference of half.

By the way, some messages are missing off the end of that Amy/Xyph convo I believe.

Now for some ice cream.
 

Cunechan

∠( ᐛ 」∠)_
Xy$
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It's unfortunate that this had to happen at all to begin with.And very sad. Truthfully, it does break my heart because I just want everyone to get along. That's not life though. Sometimes it's unavoidable, maybe inevitable. I think it was handled well enough, although the ripples might be felt for awhile. (The ice cream DID help spread a little CHILL-axing!)
Exactly, you're saying it. This forum is like a second family (atleast for me). It's a weird and heartbreaking feel to see people leaving who have been a part of the community for so long. But we can't change things that happened and that's life. It's just hard somehow. I hope something like this won't ever happen again though.
Weird, my friends in rl are all arguing and stopping to talk to each other too as in ending the friendship. We need more ice cream to cool down I guess
 

MinisterJay

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Thank you @sage and @Xyphien for allowing this to be presented. After reading the thread that sage presented in the introductory thread: https://rpgmakermv.co/threads/rule-revisions-additions.2356/ , members will understand what really caused the drama. This is why I focused so much about freedom, freedom, and freedom. These freedoms were attempted to be removed, but thankfully sage and Xy, supported us having the freedom of expression and creativity, without having someone subjectively say a resource or discussion did not make the cut, in their own 'high and mighty' opinion. Our goal is to make this the best and most fun RPG Maker MV forum around, and the addition of frivolous restrictive rules would decrease this fun. This is why some were referred to as "fun suckers." Now the membership knows the truth of why they left. They left because they were upset that their restrictiveness of our freedoms was foiled, not this convenient reason, they came up with.
 

LTN Games

Master Mind
Resource Team
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These freedoms were attempted to be removed, but thankfully sage and Xy, supported us having the freedom of expression and creativity, without having someone subjectively say a resource or discussion did not make the cut, in their own 'high and mighty' opinion.
For me this was not my intent on the topic, the reason I created, it was to clear any confusion that may occur because of a set of "loose rules" even though now I have come to an understanding of the entire situation and the reasoning behind sage and xyphiens decision. I was more worried about one moderator giving a member a warning point say for "cursing" about 4 times in one post and then another moderator look past the warnings when another situation occurs of the same calibre. It would be unfair to one member and not the other. That being said hearing one of Xyphiens reasons which was "It's up to the moderator to interpret the rule and punish as necessary, having heard this I can understand their reasoning in standing up for the "loose rules". Anyways I just wanted to clear that up, I would hate for someone to think I was trying to remove any fun from the community when my intentions are always for the community and making this a chill, friendly place, hence why I'm still here. Now that it's all in the open I feel much better about everything and I am glad we can all speak about it freely. If anyone has any questions to any of what I have said in the topic as well as private message then please ask me, I will be more than happy to clear things up.
 

sage

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Unfortunately, I get the gist that some things were handled extremely badly here. Trust issues, chain of command (which as Amy said were just discussions and not actual changes but I have no idea how the rule changes got there as they were obvs added by someone other than Amy without informing others) and random accusations.
It wasn't perfect.
By the way, some messages are missing off the end of that Amy/Xyph convo I believe.
Nope, there are only four messages.

upload_2016-2-25_8-26-25.png
 

MinisterJay

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Thanks for @LTN Games clarifying his initial post. I was not talking about LTN, in the denying of freedom context. He is not a "fun sucker." (icecream)
 

Bizarre Monkey

I SHALL BE GLORIOUS!
Xy$
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The whole debacle is one I've avoided choosing sides in, mostly because it's a political powder-keg situation and I'm too busy making games to bother getting involved. But also both sides are essentially guilty of the same crime, I'll go into that later.

The only thing I will state is that no one here is a bad guy, I know Amy had legit reasons for being pissed at the staff, and for a while, I did also.

But the staff aren't evil or shitlords either, they're just a bit thick and stubborn, like pretty much every human being. I think a lot of the problem was this forum started out so strong and we didn't want to lose the homebrew sort of vibe it had, where as others wanted to push passed it, then some like me, we're happy either way it went.

I don't know enough on the debacle to know what has truly gone down and what motives are, but I've known Amy long enough to know she isn't the sort to act out of malicious disregard for concern or care, and it has been a build up. I suppose now that she's gone I can state the only person I know she's been entirely honest with is me, she tries very hard to be as tolerant towards people as possible, so she doesn't just start a crusade over nothing.

But Xyphien and Sage aren't malicious people either, just thick or stubborn in Xyph's case, and, well Sage is just detached, but that more often than not ends up being a good thing. You think being a moderator is tough, just imagine when you're the admin. It's a heavy stressful job.

Ultimately, I don't feel the need to side because the opposition has left, and for now I'm happy here. Me and Amy are still friends, and I silently predicted this sort of explosion would happen before the resource team began.
The Crazy Chimp Collective has been monitoring you. said:
[29/11/2015 10:51:39 AM] Bizarre Monkey: MV.co is headed the same way, sadly.
[29/11/2015 10:51:50 AM] Bizarre Monkey: though it's gradual
--months in the future--
[12/02/2016 10:39:21 AM] Bizarre Monkey: i knew this was gonna happen
[12/02/2016 10:39:58 AM] Bizarre Monkey: the forum was set from day one for a crash course into a clash between the working class and the admin class
And why did I have such an innate forecast? Well, that's easy. I've been there, it's happened time and time again, people try so hard to respect each other that contempt has no room for release, it builds up, and explodes.

I don't make snide posts just to be a dick, I do it because I'm genuine, the very reason I am that way is exemplified with everything that has just been discussed here, and everything that has happened. I just let it out in small moderated doses, a lot of you piss me the fuck off, let's just put that on the table since it needs to be clear now. A lot of you sicken me in ways, but impress me in others.

But there's nothing I hate more than hiding behind a fear of confrontation and letting it eventually explode. Deal with issues when they arise, don't pass them off as light, talk about them, communicate. Through that, explosions of this sort will be avoided. I did try to explain this, but nobody listened, you wanted things to be peachy-green forever, but that entirely defies human nature. Eventually, I gave up and figured some lessons are best learned the hard way, so I hope you all learned something.

A forum cannot exist without a little bit of rudeness, it won't happen, ever. So quit dreaming. People are savage in nature, some are more aware of it, like me, some are better at covering it up. We're all monsters, trying to act like we can be best faeries forever is a vast joke. I laugh everytime people seclude themselves in that fictional universe where all is well and pleasant all the time. You know what that'd be?

Boring. BORING BORING BORING YAAAAWWWN MORE BORING.

The only rule I've broken on the forum is number 2, and now you can see why. You can be "polite" about it if you like, but frankly, being nice is just a way to be further stepped on, I learned this long ago.

Look at me, I don't take shit from any of you. If I think you're being an asshole, I will diddly darn well say so. And hey, that doesn't make me evil, that just makes me strong and powerful. I express myself, and this whole thing here...? I avoided it completely, because frankly-- you were all being ridiculous, and you were all in some way a cause to the effect, had you just been honest with each other from the start, none of this would have happened, you sillies!

You know how Croc and I became friends? I told him to tell me off, and tell me what he hated about me. In a matter of minutes, all that pent-up anger, all that being 'his foe', it was gone.

Welcome to reality, guys. We don't live in Fantasia. Apt as the thread's name is, it's been the opposite for virtually everything else. I only saw right through it because I'm used to this sort of thing and the signs are unignorable at this point.

So now you all have to make a choice, do you keep trying to livee out this unreal fantasy flowers and icecream forum, placing you on a crash course for somewhere like RMwebs, where if you have any negative thoughts, you're erased?

Or are you going to grow some spines and be more honest, confront your fears, rather than awkwardly trying to live beside them.

Think of confrontation like a monster who lives with you, he's a goofy monster, big blue and has some bad habits, you in the interest of keeping him placated, don't try to correct these bad habits, because it keeps him happy, only it doesn't, and did you ever think you have some bad habits he doesn't approve of??

No, you don't, because you want to keep the peace.

One day though, for one of you, it becomes too much, and you lash out, in response, the other lashes out, and because none of you knew what was causing the other to be all mad, you can't BELIEVE they suddenly have the guile to point out all the shit you do that annoys them, can you??

This is what I observe on this forum nearly everyday, a bunch of worrywarts trying to keep each other happy by not stepping on the wrong shells.

It's so utterly fucking simple and logical I feel I shouldn't have to explain it, but apparently I do because you didn't learn until it was too late, despite me giving a similar explanation before. And I've said several times that catering to sensitive issues is a dumb thing to do, because anything can be a sensitive issue, and people will milk said issues they have to gain more than they deserve, and that is when we get into the political powder-keg that is tumblr.

All I care about is that you act like human beings, I don't care if you have bloody PMS or Alzheimers or Bipolar Disorder, or if you just have a short fuse, or if you're offended by a thing I've said. You saying "You're offended by that" is nothing, it's a useless statement, it holds no meaning, it has no reason to be respected as a phrase.

"You're offended by that?"

Well, so what? The only thing anyone should think of when posting is how they will look. For example, I'm going to look like a smug megalomanical shitbird with this post, but BOOOYYY.

Being right about that thing I warned you of from pretty much the first month is so worth it.

I warned you, you didn't listen. And now, oh man! It's like half of the damned staff are gone.

You should be more careful, dipsticks. =)

IF YOU'RE STUPID ENOUGH TO THINK THE DRAMA WAS CAUSED BY ANYTHING OTHER THAN YOUR DESIRE TO NOT ENGAGE IN CONFLICT, THEN YOU'RE STUPID ENOUGH TO HAVE TO LISTEN TO MY LECTURES.
 
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Macro

Pantologist
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Yeah conflict of interest is pretty common in a forum (and just about anything), it's all about finding who agrees with what. Seen it so many times.
 

Amysaurus

Digital Artist
Staff member
Resource Team
Xy$
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I'm only looking at this because I've been linked this post like 5 times now, so I guess I'll clarify a few things:

> No, I did not try to convince anyone to leave the RT. All I ever said regarding the RT is that it might be a good idea to focus on things like contests, since we'd lost several members. I was concerned we no longer had enough people to put out a pack. All I recall is you two getting in a huff about there being a discussion between RT Leaders that didn't include you guys. Basically, you guys didn't trust us enough to think we'd ask you before making any sort of changes. Thanks for that.

> I'm not even mad about the art thing anymore. I was ticked off at first, but that's before I'd been linked to the proper section of the TOS that concerned me. That's when I discussed it with other people, because the reasons for wanting to keep using my artwork weren't valid until then. I didn't like it once I saw the right section, but I really didn't care enough to complain.

Like I told anyone who'd been considering leaving: it's up to them. I don't care either way if anyone chooses to stay or go.

Anyway, peace out!
 

Zebestian

The Artist formerly known as Kaimen
Resource Team
Xy$
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Hmm... it seems that getting the full picture here does indeed clarify a few things. It might not get rid of the reason why I wanted to leave but it sure gives me a good view on how things came into being and progressed over the time. It seems that I was blinded by emotion because I was only aware of so much. However, my point still stands - if this forum's administration, namely @Xyphien won't respect an artist's creation and can't be professional about such things I won't stay. I am one to grant second chances though and I will stick around and closely watch how this place is gonna develop 'cause I'd really hate having to leave after all the time here.
 

sage

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Here are two conversations that Xyphien and I had with members, claiming that Amy (and others) had been harassing RT members.
http://sta.sh/21btetpoz3tr
I'll be adding it to the main post as well

All I recall is you two getting in a huff about there being a discussion between RT Leaders that didn't include you guys.
Xyphien was upset that we weren't included in the rule changes.
The RT thing he was upset about was your message causing confusion among RT members.
 
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